When you no longer have faith

[Healandlove]

@MJG017 I'm glad your treatment is progressing. I pray you will have good news tomorrow. What if they don't go up? Have you been told you will need to progress to a different treatment? May I ask what type of cancer it is? You don't need to answer if you don't want to. 

It's lovely you have a picture of you and your mum. I'm sure you passed away peacefully knowing she got to meet you and told her truth. That I imagine would be the best gift to a mum that's forced to give up her child. I know you said you feel regret for not having been there for her, as a mum, knowing my children are safe and grown up, fending for themselves, that would be more than enough. I am so glad that you are at peace.

Thank you, I often wonder if I am wrong in thinking my sister should be more empathetic because she is a psychologist.  Although, trauma is not her speciality as a well rounded psychologist she realised that it was an abnormal overreaction caused by a trigger.  The thing my sister has always behaved like she would have preferred to have been an only child. She married one too. My husband continues on hisusband mental health journey.  He will never be the person he was.

I know your wishes are lovely but given the personalities in the extended family they will never forgive him.  He is dead to them and that's how it will stay. Truth be told they cared about him very little to start with. So I think the most confronting thing is while we/I have suffered and continue to suffer over this rupture and estrangement, they have moved on very quickly.  It has been 2 years.  The only one that is the most understanding is my Dad. He is patient and understands the complexities of cptsd. 

We have always been the ones watching over my parents.  My sister doesn't offer much in terms of caring for them. 

Yes you are right, I need to become stronger and let go of this idea of a connected and forgiving family. I don't know how. I worry so much I will be on my own in the future. After my Dad is gone, my children grow up and leave. My life feels empty because I don't feel like I belong. My extended family is not what I thought it was. My husband may or may not improve, sometimes cptsd can't be cured. So it feels like I am bracing for the next disappointment/lufe shattering event and when it happens I won't even have the comfort of a loving, understanding older sister who I always looked up to. 

Both my husband and I are seeing individual psychologists and we are also having couple counselling with another psychologist. 

[MJG017]

Thanks @Healandlove.  I have prostate cancer.  Don't believe what they tell you about only old men get it.  It's one of the reasons a friend and I, who is 6 years younger than me, started a prostate cancer support group specifically for guys in their 40s and 50s earlier this year.  Half the guys in the group are in their 40s.

I hadn't really thought about how my mother might of thought about me all those years.  I knew she was extremely nervous to meet me and scared I would be upset with her, so I am very relieved I at least got to put to rest any fears or regrets she may have had.  I think a lot of my regret is that I didn't find her earlier and got to know her and everyone else a lot better.  The first sibling I spoke with was my older sister (who was also adopted out) and she told me during that first conversation that she found them 35 years ago.  She was very close to her adopted family and always thought of them as her real family, but it hit me how much time I had lost with them all.

The number not going up is a good result.  It's pretty low at the moment but as I found out last year when it was even lower, it can climb very quickly when you become resistant to the treatment you're on.  From what I understand if the number doubles, every 10 months then it's time for concern about the speed... mine was doubling once a month for almost 6 months before I found out late last year.  So don't believe the myth about it not being aggressive either.  It can be very non-aggressive, but you have to be very lucky to get that kind.

Like I said, I don't know anything about what your husband did when he had that incident, but I imagine it was totally out of his control.  So not like someone losing their temper and having some sort of violent outburst.  It really feels to me like a bit of compassion, understanding, and even forgiveness wouldn't go amiss here.

A 70 year old man in a support group I just joined was talking about his older brother on Monday.  He talked about how his brother was angry and jealous when he was born because it took attention away from his brother.  That's probably normal I thought.  But he then told us how he's never had a good relationship with his brother because he's never forgiven him for being born.  Reading you reply reminded me of this and I wonder if your sister is similar.  Some people just like the attention to themselves I guess so makes me wonder if that is what you feel from her.  Either way, I definitely don't think you're wrong in expecting a little more empathy for her.  I doubt many people would to be honest.

I know exactly how hard it is not not feel like a part of your own family.  Ignoring the adoption thing, I never got close to anyone in my adopted family, but I've been with my partner for almost 11 years and I've never got close to any of her family either.  We all seem to get on, there doesn't seem to any dislike there at all (that I know of) but I just feel invisible and unimportant to both my family and hers.  I know some of it is my fault, because I do have issues letting people close to me but it doesn't mean it doesn't hurt.  Since being diagnosed with cancer it's really dialed that pain up incredibly because none of them (mine or hers) have ever really checked in on me to see how i'm going.  Even when I'm with them, they don't ask.  It hurts.  So I do get the pain of wishing to be closer with your family.  Yes, I could be better, but I refuse to take all of the blame, a lot has to fall on them as well so I think it's the same with your family.  I'm not sure you have much to take at all though.  I have known a few people who have had to take all the responsibility for looking after older parents because their siblings prioritize their own family and or work so they're always 'too busy' to help mum or dad.  It's sad, but not uncommon.  Again, it makes me wonder if your sister is the same, which again, is something you can't control or should take any blame over.  

I think the best thing you can do is just focus on yourself, your husband and your kids.  Yes, they will grow up and leave home eventually, but they will have their own families and grand kids and you might end up with more family around you that you've ever had before.  Some kids, when they get older become much more sensitive about issues their parents may struggle with and it makes them very close as the become adults.  So dont just have faith in yourself, have faith in your kids as well.  You can't control you extended family, but there can be a new extended family in the future.

I hope the psychologists you and your husband see are good and can help you both.  It feels like you both are due of bit of good fortune. 

[Healandlove]

@MJG017 , thank you for sharing your health journey with me. In a past life I used to study cancer so I know what you mean about prostate cancer. I am so glad you and your friend decided to start a support group together.  How did it go today? I hope all is stable. We are here if you would like to talk about it ❤️.

With my husband, he did loose his temper after 3 hours of being proded by my brother in law over a difference of opinions.  My husband didn't hurt anyone physically but he did hurt egos with words. He should have walked away but that's the problem with cptsd, they can go into freeze or fight mode with no ability to regulate. The problem is his lack of emotional regulation and his hypervigilance and defensiveness. He has a lot of anger about the abuse he suffered as a child and he was never allowed to have a voice growing up. So you can see the perfect storm. I think my brother in law had it in for him for a while so I know he is happy to have gotten rid of him. So I don't excuse my husband but I understand that his reaction was not planned. He knows I can't see him like that ever again,  I honestly wouldn't be able to survive the distress. So it is up to him now to work on himself to make sure he can always walk away in the future. He often says he is a bad person so I guess he feels the shame of it all. It's exhausting for me. I had never seen him like that before this incident and I never want to see him that way again. 

With regards to my sister I also think that she resents me for being born. I was empathetic and wanted to please her from very early on. One of my earliest memories is being around 5, her being around 8, me wanting to hug her and she violently pushing me away. My therapist is using that memory in our EMDR memories. There are other memories like this. I remember trying to make her laugh because I wanted a positive reaction from her. So I relate to what you are saying about yourself and your interactions with others. So yes, I feel that if I or my kids were important in my sisters' life she would have approached this whole thing with more empathy,  compassion and understanding. 

A couple of months after the incident my husband reached out to her for help as I ended up in the hospital from a panic attack caused by my overwhelming emotions.  My sister ignored his messages. Then in front of my parents she pretended to care about me having been in hospital.  My brother in law is older than her and has always been the boss of their home so he is chauvinistic so I guess she may also be controlled by him?

Regardless I think that strong bonds in this family would have overcome this but I guess they were never there.

And I am sorry you also feel the same about your family.  I know the pain of feeling ignored and unknown by my sister.  I can imagine how much it hurts for them not to ask about your health. I know some people struggle talking about it and that's why they don't ask but for all of them to take the same approach is sad.

I know what you mean about not opening up.my husband is the same. He doesn't let people close to him which again is another symptom to deal with for people with cptsd.

And you are right, there's always 2 sides and you shouldn't take all the responsibility for the relationships.  They are a 2 way street. I believe you do want connection and it seems you would open up and connect with the right person that cared enough. It's so good that you can talk to your support group as well as this forum.  We are here and we care.

Thank you for your kind words. I do hope my kids let their families close to me. I hope they find wonderful partners that make them happy.  I look forward to those family gatherings. Thank you for your words again. They have given me hope. I also hope my husband gets better and beats his cptsd. But that's his journey.  I support him but he needs to do the work. I hope he does. He is terribly stubborn but not a bad man in his core. His depression doesn't help either. Only time will tell.

Sending you 🫂 hugs. 

[MJG017]

Thanks@Healandlove, it was good news today... PSA down to 0.07 from 0.17 three months ago so the new drug is still working it's magic. So hopefully that continues for a while longer.  The 3 month clock has been reset.

I'm not sure, but from the outside it seems possible to think that your brother in law might have just got some enjoyment out of poking away at your husband.  Maybe the reaction was a lot more than expected but I know I would happily accept an apology if it happened to me and I knew the person had a history like his.  A little understanding goes a long way.  It does seem like it was used as a bit of an excuse to be done with your husband, which is sad but what can you do if people want to be like that?!

I know it is nowhere near the same thing, but I never talked to anyone about anything personal before about a year and a half ago.  It never felt safe to do so, so I always felt I had no choice but to never say anything and deal with everything on my own in silence.  Now that I do feel able to reach out and share with other people, I sometimes find myself going on and on.  There's been a few support group meetings where I've left feeling bad because I dominated the time talking about my problems.  When you're so used to not being able to do something, and then you can, it can be hard to control how much you do it.  It just made me think of your husband growing up not being allowed to have a voice, and now as an adult he knows he does.  Even without all the other issues, it can still be hard to control.  Obviously the ramifications of me losing control of my new found 'voice' is a few bored people in a room, but with your husband the results are far more serious and the harm does far, far worse.  It must be so frustrating... and scary I guess.  But as you say, it is up to him to work on it and learn to stop before it reaches such a point again.  I really hope he can do it, for you, but for him as well.  It must be so hard for the both of you.

I obviously don't know your sister at all, but I have known some people that could be described of as a bit self-absorbed or selfish and there does seem to be some similarities for what you've written.  It sounds like your brother in law is a bit like that as well.  So i really don't know how you would deal with that, I think it's hard to change anyone who is like that.  It's just so much more difficult to just 'write them off' when it's family rather than a neighbour or friend etc.  No one would want to do that with family, but sometimes it gets to the point where you have enough negativity in your life, that you just need to not be around anyone who brings anymore into your life.  I had to do that for a while earlier this year.  I never said anything to them, If they wanted to talk to me I was happy to, but I didn't seek them out... I left it purely to them.  It helped my focus on myself and the people who were there for me (not a huge list) and got me back in a position where I was more open to at least trying to deal with them again, but this time with more of an idea of what I was going to accept from them and what I wasn't.  I think it really helped me feel better about myself as well, like I was standing up for myself finally.  Like you, I ended up feeling the same way.... that those strong family bonds just weren't there so trying to hope they were was futile and only making things worse for me mentally with the constant disappointment.

You've asked me more about my health already than anyone in my family has.  My neighbour who I don't know that well has asked more than them.  So it seems fair to hope my own family would find the will to ask.  I can keep getting upset over it, or I can try to accept it's not the sort of relationship I have with them.  I still upsets me obviously, but I don't blame myself anywhere near as much as I did.  Just as I don't think you should blame yourself for what has happened to you.

You sound like a really caring person, so i'm sure your kids will always want you close to them and their own families.  I guess that's not strictly correct when I say 'their own' families because you are a massive part of their family and always will be.  All kids love to visit their grandmas and get spoiled 🙂  I swear mine knew that I knew where the biscuit jar was and snuck the odd iced vo-vo, but she never moved it!

Big hugs right back to you 🤗

[Healandlove]

@MJG017 oh that's great news about your results! I am so pleased for you! It seems they caught it early and this drug you are in is working well. I really hope you can go into remission soon. Keep doing all the things you think are helping with your recovery. 💙

I am so glad that you have found your voice and that have awareness about your need to tell your story and how you need to share the time with others so they can also tell you theirs. There is so much connection when we just talk and it can be so healing.

We never really talked as sisters or even with my brother in law. I'm sure things would have turned out differently if their and my husband's personalities were different. I would include myself too but all i think i did was care. It does feel like I don't belong in my family because I have a very different idea of what a family is. So far the person I can connect with the most with and relate most with is my Dad. He is a lot like me.

You are right though, there's nothing I can do about any of this. I often think that if we made the decision to divorce after all this therapy and the realisation that we need to be at peace with our respective baggage, if it came to that, I know my sister would go on with her merry life and I would just be on my own. I wouldn't reach out for support either because if they weren't here for me during these past 2 years of suffering why would they be here for me after a divorce? I will always love my sister but I need to accept that she is fine with not having me in her life. It's hard to accept. But I will have to.

Like you, I hope my husband can find happiness in what we have,  accept what happened and just let go of anger for all our well-beings. He is a kind person inside but very complicated. He struggles trusting people and with his emotional intelligence. He is dettached and even struggles giving me a daily hug, but he tries. So as long as he keeps on trying,  there may be hope for our little family.  It's funny,  just like my sister, I will always love him and I am grateful for the good parts of him even if go our separate ways.

My brother in law has been described as arrogant and aloof to me once by a close friend.  I think he has his own inferiority issues to sort out. He told my Dad that I should apologise to him for bringing my husband into the family.  That broke my heart after all the good things we did for their kids and just as 2 people trying to be accepted in their family.  He is an only child so he doesn’t know what sharing is like. 

They had photos of my parents, his parents grandparents and my kids on a mantelpiece at home but my husband and I didn't feature anywhere.  Tell me that's not a direct message that we were never part of their family.  We are their kids godparents as well and yet he couldn't find a spot for us in his home. Contrasting this, our home is full of family photos, gatherings, dinners etc. We had them and still do have them all over our home. 

It's messed up.

I know my husband is difficult and obviously unwell but I wish they had seen us as real family from the start. Things would have been so different.  I really hope I can be surrounded by people that think of me as family one day. 

They moved on without even having the curiosity of what happened. And this is truly because they just don't care or think it is worth salvaging the relationships.  I wouldn't expect my brother in law to be pals with my husband but at least to forgive him. Forgiving doesn't mean forgetting or tolerating it happening again.  It means letting go of the hatred and moving on. 

Sometimes I think I should write a letter to my sister and brother in law saying I wish we had a different kind of bond and that I accept them not wanting to have anything to do with us. That I wish them happiness and that I am moving on from this. But that I will always be there for my nephews if they need me. But I don't know if this is a good idea. Part of me wants them to know all the suffering I have been through. I don't think they would care so a potential reply from them scares me. They've shut down and moved on.

I should talk to my psychologist about this.

I'm glad you are finding peace with the type of family you have.  I need to do that too. 

I identified with my family so much that I have lost sight of who I am, what my values are... 

Anyway...I feel very vulnerable even in this forum as I hadn't shared my whole story before. @Shaz51 , you always watch out for me. You can see my challenges may be different from yours but we have felt the same at different stages of life so I guess similar in a way. And I think you and Mr Shaz also suffer from family estrangement?@MJG017 thank you for opening me up so I can talk about this a bit more.

You also sound like a very caring person who wants to connect and belong. No doubt if we met in real life we would be friends. 

Here for you. 🫂 hugs 🙂

[Shaz51]

Thanks is good news about your results @MJG017 , keep my fingers crossed for you 

@Healandlove 

Sending you lots of hugs my sister 🤗 

Yes I think you are right about your sister in any situation she would not help xx 

And yes to my family situation as we don't get any visitors and are not invited to family dos 

Last few months I have realised how much my grandmother and then my mum who were the rock in my family which they kept all the family together 

But now I feel have no family connections and I am sure they don't visit because of Mr shaz 

[Healandlove]

@Shaz51 I'm sorry Shazzy..it's very hard isn't it?

Your mum and grandmother sound like strong, caring women keeping the family together.  I hope you have good memories of them.

Yes, mental health challenges definitely make it harder to feel included and connected.

Thank you for calling me sister. It's nice to hear it. I remember wanting to call my sister sis and she told me off over it. Funny that.

I pray for us and our husbands. May we continue to have the strength to look after ourselves and support them.

They have their good days and those are lovely. 

Sending you hugs too my sister 🤗 ❤️ 

[MJG017]

Thanks @Healandlove (and @Shaz51), I feel better mentally since the result.  I was extremely luck it was caught when it was, the situation could have definitely been a lot worse.  It was pure luck it was picked up at all!  I was told at the start they would prefer the robotic surgery, but that would be a 3 month wait but the was far too long to wait so I had to have the open surgery instead.

A cure isn't really an option once it has left the prostate so I'm reliant on these drugs to keep it under control.  I didn't have much luck with the first one, so fingers crossed this new one works for quite a lot longer.  

I think your friend's description of your brother in law is probably pretty close to the truth.  So.e people are just like that, just as your sister seems to have a very narrow idea of how far the circle of family extends.

I wonder just how like your husband I am in so.e ways.  I too have slways struggles to let anyone close to me... I still do.  I still find hugs awkward.  My mother used to always remind me saying "You never hug me."  It always made me feel like there was something wrong with me.  My partner comments on it occasionally, mainly just to tease me because she has a far better understanding of what I'm like and what I struggle than my mother ever did.  It so hard struggling with attachment and trusting people, especially when a lot of people seem to misinterpret it as not caring or disinterest.  I do try with my partner as well but I do feel like its not fair to her, so I do keep trying really hard to be more open as I'm sure your husband does with you.  Us men can be our own worst enemies at time sadly.

What your brother in kaw said to your father, really speaks a lot about the sort of person he is.  Even if that is truly how he feels there's more, let's say more subtle or diplomatic ways to say it.  The lack of care or compassion, or any thought for anyone else comes through strongly by saying that.  I think so anyway.  Especially about what you say about the inferiority issues.  It seems like he may have resented your husband being around and have another male in his immediate family circle. 

I understand totally about the lack of photos of you.  When I started getting to know my biological siblings through messaging, one of the first things we did was exchange photos of ourselves growing up.  There were none of me.  The few that were taken of me weren't kept by my parents.  The only photos I had of myself were ones I found on facebook a few months previously.  My primary school had their 50th anniversary that year and people were posting their old class photos.  So I spent hours trawling through trying to find ones that had me in them.  Luckily I did and so had these to send.  But it was also another painful reminder of feeling so unimportant. 

I think that letter is a great idea.  Yes, they may just ignore it and discard it, but that is up to you.  Any further distancing in the relationship is on them!  I'd  definitely mention it to your psychologist and I'd be curious to hear what they think.  It just seems like a great way to make one last attempt to appeal to any feelings they may have, and if not, well it also makes a nice "sorry you feel this way" letter.  It puts the ball firmly in their court as to how the relationship goes from then on.  It would have to be carefully worded though to not sound accusatory in any way, just how you feel and are saddened by how things are now between all of you.

I know this hasn't been easy on you, but hopefully you're at least feeling better about yourself and in knowing so much of this is out of your control and not anything you should feel is a failing of you in any way.  I also know just how difficult it is to share personal stories, especially for the first time, so you should be proud of yourself, and it means a lot to me to hear ive been helpful in any way making it easier for you.

Continue to take good care of youself 🫂